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separate entities and I know Dillard's wants to have its own identity and this one once their own and so on. They all belong to the mall so they have to tie in, so it looks like it all belongs together. They can have their separate identity in their entranceways, and the heights of their buildings. Mr. Rinker: Here I am going to back off, as an attorney again because I am relating to you what was related to me. I think the people that can probably address that is Mr. Yager and Mr. Cassiere. Mr. Cassiere: In our first presentation we had a banding which you will see in the old elevation which was lower at about 12 feet high. At the recommendation of the architectural review board, we raised it up with two different materials. I understand your point of running this along the line and as an architect, I would have to go back to the office and say let me see if we are matching this what would it look like. Mr. Tallon: To be honest with you, I think you should brick the entire building, that is what the mall is and if you would like to use different colored brick like you did there, then that is fine. Use different colored brick but brick the whole building. Make it a structure we can be proud of, we do not want a cheap structure that you just throw up and then it falls apart. Mr. Cassiere: I do not think it is going to fall apart. The material that we will be using is an exterior installation system and Dillard's has had over 20 years of experience working with this material. We have learned things and have stuck with this product. We have found that it is very durable and as far as achieving a quality design and allowing us to do more than what we have ever been able to do before. Mr. Tallon: That is a plain wall, what is unique about that? Mr. Rinker: If, I can interject! I think it is appropriate to understand what the question is and what the assumption is. What I am hearing, and this is not the first time I have heard this, so we will try to hit it squarely. The perception is that by using the other material it somehow cheapens the look. Is that correct? Mr. Tallon: Yes exactly, it makes it aesthetically less, the thing is we have a structure here that is entirely brick. Why would we want to stick something on it that does not even correlate to that. Mr. Rinker: The question that I will ask you is, have you ever beeri to Beachwood Mall. Mr. Tallon: I do not care about Beachwood Mall. I care about Great Northern mall. Mr. Rinker: I understand that, but I am suggesting that not only Beachwood mall, but also other malls all around the country mix those materials. In fact, what started out as a real resistance in the industry years ago has changed. In the state of Ohio, it is recognized under BOCA (Building Officials and Code Administrators), and in this community, it is recognized as an acceptable building material. Mr. Tallon: I am not disagreeing with that. Mr. Rinker: But what I am saying, is we are getting to the point where one man's fancy may not be that of someone else's. What we are asking is that the city not assume that this is cheap, but on the contrary, the material lends itself to a lot more flexibility. 1VIr. Tallon: We are not talking about dollars and cents. Mr. Rinker: Appearance, which is exactly what I am talking about and we respectfully, disagrees that it cheapens on the contrary. Mr. Tallon: You have your opinion and we have our opinion. Mr. Rinker: It is an opinion that is borne out of 20 years of experience marketing this store, the look of the store is a product, just like everything else. We would not be putting this in front of you and this is all that I have heard from Dillard's, we have looked at this very vigorously as we understood there would be misgivings. The record is there, this is something that has been used and it will last. It is more malleable of a material, the cornice at the top is the E.F.I.S. material that you cannot do with masonry. Even if you look at SouthPark, which has masonry surface you cannot achieve the same esthetic, dramatic impact with masonry that you can with this product. You get to a point, where from the standpoint of your building code requirements, state requirements, it is a material that not only lasts it is durable and lends itself too much more dramatic usage. Are there examples of where people have messed up? 4